re: defining "gimp" 

@rey
Why is it relevant? Was it created at Berkeley? (I don't know, just curious). So, the name is bad because creators were likely to aware it's bad.

Should have Windows Vista been renamed because it's a funny name in Latvian?

My point is, that on the international scale it's likely that a name will mean something less than appropriate for some group of people somewhere on the Earth.

@ekaitz_zarraga @grainloom @hirojin

re: defining "gimp" 

@rey @ekaitz_zarraga @grainloom @hirojin

Also there is a football player Nasri, which in Russian sounds similar to a phrase "go and shit" which actually means "don't give a fuck". It's unrealistic to expect the guy to actually change his name.

The naming issue a freedom of speech issue. We've got a group of people that created something and decided to name it's the way it's named.

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin GIMP was intended to have a, well, for lack of a better term, politically incorrect name
after all, it used to be called "the GIMP" for quite a while. you know. after the sex slave character from an internationally famous movie.
and it's not a personal name either. you are drawing false equivalences.

re: defining "gimp" 

@grainloom
That's a good point.

I want to focus more how the name is perceived, not on it's origin. In this case, I think, to comparisons are relevant.

Languages are powerful. Ambiguity is one of the basic phenomena. "Pussy" will mean different things in a kindergarten and in a high school.

I can't see how outsiders can force the core team to change the name.
@rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin
Which is why the core team sucks. They should listen to people. The very problem is that some people _cannot_ become core members because of the name. (and the attitude of the current core team)

re: defining "gimp" 

@grainloom

Yes, but this is what they've created the way they wanted. If they don't listen to this argument, it's their choice.

@rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin
True. I hope the fork gains traction.

re: defining "gimp" 

@grainloom

I see two arguments.

The first is that most of the words are ambiguous and it's meaning is resolved given the context. In IT context, GIMP means an image editor.

@rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

re: defining "gimp" 

@grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

The second is that gimp is toxic speech that hurts people. To make this argument one needs to show that GIMP as a project has enough power to qualify as hate speech.

re: defining "gimp" 

@grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

* "Free Speech in the Digital Age" edited by Susan J. Brison and Katharine Gelber

* "Speech and Harm" edited by Ishani Maitra and Mary Kate McGowan

These two books are good starting point. Lynne Tirrel's work goes in deep details.

re: defining "gimp" 

@grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

I find the argument that the name of a project is hate speech weak, because one needs to show that it has power over the oppressed group.

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel Who are you to define the argument. It is that gimp, as a name, is toxic enough to dissuade people from feeling comfortable using or participating in the project. It is exclusionary. (While that isn't directly oppressive, it does play into social structures of oppression, so I find the argument that it facilitates oppression strong, and the argument that isn't oppressive weak.) @grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

re: defining "gimp" 

@emsenn
Of you want to go personal, I'm nothing and my opinion doesn't worth anything. I don't use GIMP and neither find it's name offensive.
@grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel I'm not getting personal, I'm telling you: you are misconstruing the argument of those you are disagreeing with. That is a logical fallacy; it's most commonly called "strawmanning;" I forget the latin.

Since we're discussing it personally; I don't use GIMP because people have used that term as a slur toward me and the software name reminds me of it. Beyond that, I don't like letting people who don't respect me make my tools. @grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel Since you honestly might not know (in which case you should've stayed quiet and self-educated) here's the (now-deleted) issue: webcache.googleusercontent.com

Note how it doesn't say anything about the name being hate speech. It just says it's an insult, and a colloquial reference to a kink. Other issues are acronyms are hard to remember, and that GIMP doesn't make it clear what the software does! There's four reasons, one about hate speech!

Listen to what people say.

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel Like I don't mean to harp on but, come on, if you're gonna engage in online discussions about stuff, do your basic research. That means primary sources, not your inference from reading fifty hot takes. ESPECIALLY if you're butting into a conversation that doesn't involve you.

Doing any less is just... really disrespectful to the people you're talking to; I hope you can see why I say that.

re: defining "gimp" 

@emsenn
I find the hate speech poimt the most important.

I don't see renaming the project as a universal solution, because of the examples I've provided: Pajero/vista/Nasri/pussy.

I believe that language is powerful enough to minimise the hurt of this name given that we on the day to day basis operate with ambiguous words.

Words to change their meanings, for example the word gay.

Follow

re: defining "gimp" 

@emsenn

I don't defend anyone. I see how the word is problematic, but I don't (yet) see how the core team can be forced to change the name.

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel No one is suggesting the can be forced ot change the name. We're just saying they're assholes for how they handled the situation, regardless of their conclusion. Again, you're just... saying that things are the problems that aren't the problems. No one except you is bringing up hate speech as a legal claim to force them to change the name. That's a fictitious agenda you have either been falsely given, or made up.

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel At this point you're either ignoring the primary sources or claiming you know better, and either way is, again, a really shitty and disrespectful way to conduct a conversation with someone. You're not right, and you're being an asshole.

re: defining "gimp" 

@emsenn
Ok, I'm sorry I'm an asshole, and that's my last message.

If it's not hate speech, then the gimp team can do whatever they want and then being assholes is your opinion.

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel And I mean, you're lying. You're saying your not defending anyone, but you're arguing against people bringing up the issue.

If two people are talking and one says "I like blue and red as colors!" and the other says "I think that's hard for colorblind folk to read" and you exclusively debate with the second person about the validity of red and whether there's really room for them to have that preference, and why are they forcing people to change the theme...

re: defining "gimp" 

@pixel Sorry I hit send on this before I saw your notification about that being your last message; I'm not trying to keep talking at you past that point, but I'm honestly not sure what etiquette says I should do at this point; delete this and the message before it or leave it up.

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